Dear Subversive Church,

Hi Mike (from Subversive Church),

I thought I'd reply to your comments you left me in regards to my last post by posting them on my blog. I hope to try and put myself in your shoes, bearing in mind that we come from different church and national cultures. My experiences shape my worldview and my identity, so again I see the world for who I am and not necessarily for what it is. For the most part I simply want to paraphrase what you've said so that you can help me to understand where you're coming from. I will leave you with some concluding thoughts and will let you have the last word here. If you like to continue the conversation maybe we can do e-mail or skype, so feel free to contact me through my blog. God bless you as you continue to seek Him in your journey of faith.

Hendrick

Subversive Church says:

"I must press that what caused me to no longer attend an institutional church wasn't hurtful. Far from it actually, as I still talk to many of the people from the churches I have attended. In fact, I went disc golfing the other day with the worship leader from the last church I attended."

So you have good relations with the people you formerly attended church with. Glad to hear that. I made a (reasonable) assumption that there was hurt, as you had mentioned sadness and anger in your having left the church. Losses are felt in many ways over many things; if you became disillusioned with the church then I would say that’s a loss of ideals. Any loss involves hurt, so I wonder how honest you are here with yourself. However I need to take at face value what you said about there being no hurt.

"So why did I leave if I wasn't hurt? Well here is a laundry list of reasons:

For most churches there is a human hierarchical system. I don't think followers of Jesus should be 'over' one another. It breeds complacency. Rather, each person should be working with one another in mutual support. This requires more commitment and active participation than is required in the current model. And that in effect is going to turn people away because they want something easy and handed to them. Think rich young ruler parable."

So I think what you’re saying here is that there should be equality amongst believers, both in authority and in function. Everyone shares the load; no one is “the boss.” It sounds like in your church experience the pastors did the heavy lifting while the people did little. If the pastor actually asked the people to serve in the church it would drive them away. Not sure how the rich ruler ties in here as it wasn’t a parable but a real interaction with a person who trusted in riches instead of God…

"I don't think there should be buildings. Buildings create budgets, budgets require money. In order to generate money, a congregation must be established and grown. This distorts Jesus' prayer to go and make disciples into an evangelical market share mindset."

You’re talking about misplaced priorities here; buildings over people and running the church like a business, yes?

"Tithing as it is practiced today in nowhere near the biblical model of 10%. In fact, it goes against the early church models of everything in community. Tithing is used to support a budget."

I’m unsure of what you mean here, with the way you worded the sentence. Are you saying that tithing is unbiblical? Is it that people don’t tithe, and should? Or is it how the tithe is spent that’s unbiblical? I think you may be referring to how the believers sold their possessions and shared with those in need, like they did in the book of Acts. Am I right?

"Sunday as the primary service. Not only are the origins of moving the Sabbath to Sunday anti-jewish, they exclude the working class. Generally those with weekends off have better jobs, jobs that aren't shift work."

Ok, so I think you’re questioning how and why the day of Christian worship was changed, and that by having a fixed day of worship we have created cultural and economical barriers for those whom God seeks to save.

"Your claim of Sunday being the best place to meet Jesus is not inclusive, which I believe Jesus was inclusionary. It excludes those who live in repressive nations, hostile nations, and even those poor folks who have to work on Sundays."

Did I say that Sunday was the best place? I thought I said that the church was the best place, whether it was on Saturday night, Sunday morning, mid week in a home or over coffee at Tim Horton’s (Do you have Tim Horton’s down there?) Again I think you’re saying here that a fixed day of worship is a cultural and economic barrier for people. Are you talking about this being a social justice issue here too? I’m not sure what you mean about it excluding those in repressed, hostile nations.

"Both the Sunday service and the building lead to a static exsistence. They tie people down and leave them little room to maneuver, which seems an afront to the idea of following the Holy Spirit."

So doing church in a fixed location in space and time creates barriers to what God wants to do in the church.

"The Sunday service and the building are for current believers in reality, but are referred to as a place for non-believers to come. Due to the desire of people to attend something that doesn't require effort (think pew-warmers) any extra time to create something for those curious about the teachings of Christ is right out, so the Sunday service is touted as something for everyone. It isn't. It ends up being stagnant for those who have been believers for longer because the message is never deeper or a Q&A session for fear of those who might be new or curious believers getting turned off."

I think you’re saying that, as Erwin McManus put it, the church has become a refuge from the world instead of for the world. Church-goers ultimately don’t care about the lost, and the church leadership waters down the message in the hopes that this will entice the seeker without turning him/her off. Correct, or am I off base here?

"And the people who might need to hear the freeing message of Jesus aren't going to step foot into a building they deem to hold judgemental people, even if that is a wrong stereotype on their part."

Yes, the church does have an image problem, deservedly or not.

"I can expand more on those, but needless to say I think the model, not necessarily the people, is a flawed way to represent following Christ. And I think that is a vitally important distinction. The institutional church (i.e. the buildings, the titles, the heirarchy, the format) is not the human church (i.e. the people, both locally and globally)"

So how then should we “do church?”

"You yourself said that you meet Jesus in places other than church. Well, what if maybe, just maybe, for others those "other places" are more important?"

What if maybe, just maybe, they’re all important? They’re important at least to me.

"I know that admitting that another way is possible, maybe even better, seems to shake the foundational pillars of western Christianity, but I'll leave you with two examples of other ideas that shook our religious foundations to their core. Jesus verses the Temple system. And Luther verses the Roman Catholic Church."

So… you’re saying that there’s two ways of doing church here: my way and yours? Do we even understand each other’s concepts of how to do church? I think we’re both having a hard time understanding each other (or maybe I’m speaking for myself here). The bottom line is, in spite of all the problems of the institutional church, I’m happy to be there. Why? Because in spite of the mess we all make in the church (myself included) I find that Jesus continues to show up, Sunday after Sunday. I don’t know how having a non-model type of church model feeds you, keeps you accountable or brings you together with other believers in worship. I’d like to know how you manage to grow in your faith; if you can do all these things outside of the traditional church structure then that’s great – for you. All I know is that when I miss a Sunday at my home church I don’t feel guilty; instead I deeply feel like I’ve missed out on something wonderful.

What you’re saying here doesn’t shake me; it simply bewilders me. I don’t feel threatened by your view of the church. Rather, I see it as just another expression of the Reformation, which really has never ended. It goes on today and it looks different to everyone. My wife’s cousin is an Adventist, so I have to be a vegetarian and worship on Saturday. The Pentecostal church I attended when I got saved said I had to speak in tongues. My Calvinist neighbor tells me I’m better off in a Reformed church. Each church has a corner on the truth, and now the non-institutional church has it too. Honestly I’m weary of it, and in the end I may add the subversive church to the list of all the other “true” churches.

Here’s some food for thought. Ronald Wells, in his book “History through the Eyes of Faith” addresses this problem here. He writes that Protestant conventional wisdom is about concern over corruption in the institutional church, which grieves the Spirit (or as you put it is an affront to the Spirit). Therefore if we are restoring real religion we must be supported by the Spirit, who can’t be divided. “If,” Wells writes, “the Holy Spirit did leave the church, and since you seem to know what others do not know, you should tell us when the Spirit left.” (Wells, 80-81)

"To think that we are at the pinnicle of Christianity is to forget our history and act as though God might not have anything better than mega-churches in store for us."

God forbid that any of us should think we have arrived.

Why I need the church

Wow, did I ever stir the pot last week. My previous post on a certain celebrity, charitable giving and the church all made for a blog recipe that was bold in flavor. I got tons of feedback, most on facebook where I import my posts to. As well an anonymous reader (or readers) gave me some food for thought, and I had a stimulating online dialogue with a group of Christians who have basically walked away from the institutional church. I followed a link that someone gave me, and if you want to see the conversation you can click here. To everyone who gave me feedback I thank you; you've helped me in the process of rounding out my views. After some thought and prayer I decided to follow up last week's post with a response that, by applying the wording to myself, I hope to make a case for why I (and perhaps you as well) need the church. This is mainly intended for my Christian readers, but hopefully my "secular" readers (who probably say "So what?") will see the benefits as well.

Now, when I say "the church" I refer here to a local, organized assembly of believers. There's the concept of the "universal" or "Catholic" church (not to be confused here with Roman Catholicism) that all believers in all nations and for all time are a part of "the church." Those who object to the idea that Christians need to "go to church" say that they haven't left the universal church but rather the local church. They basically left because they were jaded by issues of leadership, money, doctrine, or whatever else that's turned them off. I don't blame them. I've been disappointed by the church too. As a former leader in the church I've seen the other side of doing church, and it's not pretty at times. You find out things about people and deal with issues that you wish you didn't know or have to handle. But does that give me license to just walk away from the church? Why do I need the church?

In a nutshell, the church is where I experience Jesus. And believe me, there's nothing better than experiencing Jesus. Whether it's at my home church of Calvary Baptist or Harvest Vineyard, my home-away-from home, or any number of other churches I've visited where the people love Jesus, I encounter Him there. When I worship God in a corporate setting I feel His love. When I receive teaching about God's kingdom and apply it to my life I become more like Him. When I serve others with the gifts that I have I sense God's pleasure on me. Guilt doesn't motivate me to attend church, but relationship does. Not only with Jesus but with people. In fact it's through relationships with people that I come to know Jesus more. I need the prayers and encouragement of those who love me, both parishioners and pastors. I've been blessed by the wisdom and guidance of godly people, and if I had not been mentored by the church leaders in my life I would not be the person I am today (which would not be a good thing). And I can't get much of this by jumping from church to church every Sunday, or not at all for that matter. I need to put down roots somewhere so that people can get to know me, and I know them, so I can encounter Jesus in a deeper way.

The church also is a resource for those in need; not only spiritually or relationally, but materially. I've been the personal recipient, on more than one occasion, of the generosity of the church in times of great need. And I'm not the only one; for several years now my home church (Calvary) has sent teams to Mexico to build houses for the poor. Two years ago we began sending groups to Vancouver to minister to people in their inner city. And once a month we send a group, on a Sunday morning, downtown to give away food, toiletry and clothing to the poor. We've spontaneously taken up oblation offerings for people in our congregation who have hit on hard times. We took up an offering for the 2004 Boxing Day Tsunami victims. I can go on and on here. I'm not saying that we couldn't do more, but I am saying that the church, as an organized institution, can be a force for good in the world. I know it's made a difference in my life, and I know it's made a difference in the lives of others. I guess that's another reason why Bono hits a nerve with me - that there are actually churches out there that are doing the very thing he's saying they're not doing, which is helping the poor.

I understand the reasons why some people don't think they need the church. But honestly I just can't relate to them, especially when they say that God "told them" to leave the church. It flies in the face of everything I've read in the Bible and it flies in the face of everything I've experienced. Again, we see the world for who we are and not so much for what it is. So if your experience with the church has left you jaded, let me ask you this: Why throw out the baby with the bathwater? If the church you attend spends more money on its pastor or building than its worth, does that mean God has left the church along with you? Like I said in my last post, Jesus didn't let the hypocrisy of the day stop Him from going to the Synagogue every Sabbath, and neither should it stop me from going to church on Sunday. Besides, I have been just as much a part of the problem myself at times. So if I decided to stop attending church it's not so much as an indictment on others, but myself. Judge not and you will not be judged, Jesus said. It's a good word I constantly need to remind myself, especially when I'm in church on Sunday.

Is Bono better than Jesus?

Ok, I'm sticking my neck out here by what I'm about to say, but if we're encouraged to question everything then it's only fair to question those who ask the questions. Bear in mind also that, like everything else I write, this is a reflection of who I am. We see the world not so much for what it is but for who we are. Our views tells others more about us than the world around us. I'm sticking my neck out here because I have some thoughts that are in the minority about a well-known celebrity. I am the pigeon that's about to poop on a pop-culture icon who's put on a pedestal. I've had conversations about this fellow with a couple of young adults from my church who think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, so I know I'll be ruffling a few feathers. Who am I talking about here?

Bono.

Yes, Bono. As in the lead singer of U2, arguably the biggest rock band in the world. Now I have to say that I like Bono. Not a lot, but I do like him. I listen to U2 and my favorite Christian rock band, Third Day, has been greatly influenced by their music. I hear re-makes of U2 songs on Christian radio, and Bono has spoken out on social issues for years. He's had the ear of many powerful people, so to say that U2/Bono has impacted the world is an understatement. Having said that I have to say that there's something about Bono that just doesn't sit well with me. But why? He works tirelessly to make people aware of Third World poverty and debt; he meets with world leaders to press his cause and he's rightly given the church a kick in the pants about it's indifference to AIDS in Africa. This happened a few years ago when Bill Hybels, pastor of Willow Creek Church, interviewed Bono. Here's the interview:



Fast forward to last Friday, the last day of the Willow Creek Leadership Summit in South Barrington, Illinois. I was at a satellite conference site, as a follow-up interview was beamed down to us folk who couldn't make it to Willow Creek Church. Bill Hybels asked Bono what he thought about the church's involvement with the poor, and Bono's reply was, "You know, I get off gett'n off about the church and you've completely ruined it for me... I said that the church was a sleeping giant, but I never knew that the giant could run." What Bono referred to was the tremendous response to his call to action. Since that first interview churches in the developed world gave generously to poverty relief in Africa, which seemed to take Bono by surprise. It's ironic that it took a rock star to prompt Christians to give, but God uses whoever's available to serve His purposes.

Ok, I'm getting to the point here. Hybels, towards the end of the interview, says something like, "You're a Christian and yet you won't commit yourself to a church, and that really bugs me." When Hybels said that everyone both at Willow Creek and the satellite site , including me, cheered. Afterwards Hybels gently chided us for doing so. But here's why I (and probably everyone else) cheered: Bono is a rich entertainer who "gets off gett'n off about the church" about poverty, and yet sits on the fence when it comes to the church. And I honestly don't know what he himself has done to help the poor. He comes across (to me at least) as judgmental, and if he's a believer (which I believe he is) then he's a part of Christ's church, thereby judging himself as well (Mathew 7:1-3). I understand his point of view about the church. Growing up in Ireland with one parent Protestant and the other Catholic has made him fearful of denominationalism (his words, not mine here). He has a lot of reservations about the church, and I don't blame him. I've felt hurt, disappointed and let down by the church too. But I'm still a part of it because I need the church. Apparently Bono doesn't. At least he goes around attending services, Catholic and Protestant, wherever he goes.

It's tempting to go on and on here, but I'll end with a few final thoughts. Jesus didn't shy away from denominationalism when he was here on earth. He made it his custom to go to the Synagogue every Sabbath, in spite of the divisions in Judaism and the hypocrisy of the people. Bono's no better than the rest of us and certainly no better than Jesus. Bono sees the church through the eyes of Irish sectarianism, and while understandable it keeps him from experiencing a deeper relationship with Jesus. But when we commit ourselves to a church we can form deep relationships that form the life of Christ in us. Maybe I'm wrong about Bono. Maybe he's not just an entertainer, asking us to help the poor while being chauffeured or flying around in a private jet. I want to be wrong.

So Bono, if you happen to be reading this (which I highly doubt), maybe tone down the rhetoric, take a year off from your touring schedule and spend some time and money on the ground, doing hands on stuff with the poor. Maybe The Edge and the other lads would pitch in too. If you have, then I apologize. But actions do speak louder than words, and I just can't relate to wealthy Christian celebrities who lecture me about the poor and don't put roots down in a congregation. You know, we all have a hand in making the problems of the world, and like it or not the church is the only life boat for a sinking world. So why rock the boat just because you don't like the company?

'Nuff said.

"So, any news yet?"

That's the question I get a lot these days - "Have you heard anything about your adoption?" The simple answer to that question is no. "How goes the adoption process?" someone else would ask. The answer to that questions is S L O W. . . Not that I mind fielding a bunch of questions about it. In fact I see it as a positive thing; that there are so many people cheering us on, anxious for developments. I suspect that if we were pregnant there would be a lot of people happy for us but not as interested. After all, anyone can have a baby (well except us, and I know there's others out there in the same boat) but not everyone goes out and adopts a child. The attention that's generated is unexpected, but encouraging.

Having said that both Angel and I also feel like the wheels are slowly grinding along, if at all. It seems like things either move along quickly or at a snail's pace. Kinda like rush hour on the Whitemud Freeway during construction season... Knowing that the process could take years is a bit discouraging though. I'm hoping that it's months instead of years, but maybe I'll be feeling like things are rushing along too fast when we finally do get a placement. In the meantime there are things we can do to fill the time. We can take more courses offered by Children's Services on how to meet the needs of adoptive children; as well a lady in our church has matched us up with friends of her's who have adopted. We've been corresponding by e-mail and plan to get together sometime this month so we can share each other's experiences. And we're supposed to meet again soon with Sharon, our placement worker, to talk about any developments that have been going on behind the scenes.

The biggest thing we can do in the meantime though is to pray. I pray every day for our child - whoever he is (I use he here generically, but also because the odds are that it will be a boy as there's so many of them in the system). I pray for his protection and guidance; that whatever pain and trauma he has (or maybe is right at this moment) going through that God would surround him and reveal His heart to him. I know that we're all damaged goods, but if you're a child in foster care there's even more damage. That kind of damage can make it hard to believe that God is good; so, in spite of whatever circumstances he faces, I pray that our future child would put his faith in Jesus and let Him heal the wounds of his past. And I also pray that years from now when he reads his old man's blog that he will see how God has been working behind the scenes in our lives as we're preparing to become the parents God will provide him. As much as I want things to move along I do sense that this is a time of preparation for us, and that the times of intercession will be a part of his coming to know the Father of every orphan. And really, when you think about it, that's all of us too.