Comments on The H Blog - Contemporary, Philosophical Jive: Why I need the church

I must press that what caused me to no longer atte...

2009-08-26T14:06:38.910-06:00

I must press that what caused me to no longer attend an institutional church wasn't hurtful. Far from it actually, as I still talk to many of the people from the churches I have attended.

In fact, I went disc golfing the other day with the worship leader from the last church I attended.

So why did I leave if I wasn't hurt? Well here is a laundry list of reasons:

For most churches there is a human hierarchical system. I don't think followers of Jesus should be 'over' one another. It breeds complacency. Rather, each person should be working with one another in mutual support. This requires more committment and active participation than is required in the current model. And that in effect is going to turn people away becasue they want something easy and handed to them. Think rich young ruler parable.

I don't think there should be buildings. Buildings create budgets, budgets require money. In order to generate money, a congregation must be established and grown. This distorts Jesus' prayer to go and make disciples into an evangelical market share mindset.

Tithing as it is practiced today in nowhere near the biblical model of 10%. In fact, it goes against the early church models of everything in community. Tithing is used to support a budget.

Sunday as the primary service. Not only are the origins of moving the Sabbath to Sunday anti-jewish, they exclude the working class. Generally those with weekends off have better jobs, jobs that aren't shift work.

Your claim of Sunday being the best place to meet Jesus is not inclusive, which I believe Jesus was inclusionary. It excludes those who live in repressive nations, hostile nations, and even those poor folks who have to work on Sundays.

Both the Sunday service and the building lead to a static exsistence. They tie people down and leave them little room to maneuver, which seems an afront to the idea of following the Holy Spirit.

The Sunday service and the building are for current believers in reality, but are referred to as a place for non-believers to come. Due to the desire of people to attend something that doesn't require effort (think pew-warmers) any extra time to create something for those curious about the teachings of Christ is right out, so the Suday service is touted as something for everyone. It isn't. It ends up being stagnant for those who have been believers for longer because the message is never deeper or a Q&A session for fear of those who might be new or curious believers getting turned off.

And the people who might need to hear the freeing message of Jesus aren't going to step foot into a building they deem to hold judgemental people, even if that is a wrong stereotype on their part.

I can expand more on those, but needless to say I think the model, not necessarily the people, is a flawed way to represent following Christ. And I think that is a vitally important distinction. The institutional church (i.e. the buildings, the titles, the heirarchy, the format) is not the human church (i.e. the people, both locally and globally)

You yourself said that you meet Jesus in places other than church. Well, what if maybe, just maybe, for others those "other places" are more important?

I know that admitting that another way is possible, maybe even better, seems to shake the foundational pillars of western Christianity, but I'll leave you with two examples of other ideas that shook our religious foundations to their core. Jesus verses the Temple system. And Luther verses the Roman Catholic Church.

To think that we are at the pinnicle of Christianity is to forget our history and act as though God might not have anything better than mega-churches in store for us.

-mike

Hi Mike, Thanks for commenting. No apologies nece...

2009-08-22T08:40:05.244-06:00

Hi Mike,

Thanks for commenting. No apologies necessary; in fact I bowed out because I realized that as much as I feel the need to make my point it's more important for people to feel like they're heard. This is a passionate topic for you and what you have to say is important, not just to me but to God too.

I can't imagine what must have happened to you and others like you that was so hurtful that you walked away from the institutional church. For that I'm sorry and it sounds like it wasn't a snap decision. I will reply to your question in the context of speaking for myself.

I encounter Jesus in many different ways, whether it's serving the needs of the persons with disabilities I work with, looking up at an amazing mountain view or in my (mostly) daily devotional times. But being with "the church" has been the *best* place where I encounter Jesus, whether it's during the Saturday night/Sunday morning service, weekly small group meeting, the retreats we do as a body or simply having coffee with my pastor (or anyone else I "go to church" with).

I look forward to hearing more about what you have to say. And Jesus, give me ears to hear what Mike has to say. It's important to him and it's important to you too.

Hendricks, I have actually written several commen...

2009-08-22T01:40:20.288-06:00

Hendricks,

I have actually written several comments on your blog, but have only erased them because I felt them to be too sharp in tone.

I'm a little unsure that we had a stimulating conversation over at our blog since you bowed out after just a couple of comments.

Maybe my second comment there was too much. If so, I apologize. Though I still stand by by cautionary words to not assume too much about a person by one post.

Unfortunately, I must point this problem out again. You say that people who have left the local church have done so "because they were jaded."

I will say that I left the institutional church after much discussions and prayer. I left with sadness, not anger. My sadness over the years has turned into more of a righteous indignancy, which is vastly different from being jaded. If I didn't think some sort of reform was possible, then I would have walked away and not looked back.

There are a couple of points I take issue with in this post, but before I mention them I need to bring up a more pressing issue.

You say you experience Jesus in church. That's fine. But the way you say it, using terms like "in a nutshell" and :home-away-from-home," it sound like the only place you can meet Jesus is in a church building setting.

Is this true, or have I read your words and intention incorrectly?

I don't want to go on until you clarify this point for me, as I may be reading the post in the wrong way. So if you could address this point first so that I can continue this conversation with the proper understanding of what you meant.

Thanks.
-mike